J'y vois un peu clair... maintenant
May. 14th, 2005 07:41 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
Just back from a dinner at Barbara's. It was lovely for the most part. I got to talk for quite a long while with one of her friends, Alicia, who lived in Atlanta for a year last year, so we discussed American stuff (especially school things) a lot and it was just a really nice conversation. From what I noticed, Hélène and Marie mostly talked with each other and tended to always stray back to the topic of school (in one form or another) - I know I can never do that if other people in the conversation don't know school well, because I'm afraid they'll be bored and all. Anyway.
Early in the evening I got a bad feeling because Alexandre, Barbara's boyfriend, was talking of working in the military and how it was "easier for gays". This can seem so ironic at first considering how homophobic the army tends to be, but what he really meant was that working in the military made it more complicated to have a family, so it seemed like he was making the assumption that gays can't have a family - I tried to correct him but he didn't hear right and I didn't want to press the issue, especially since he wasn't being like overtly homophobic or anything.
Later on though, I somehow found myself discussing gay marriage. It's funny because this crowd seemed to be typical of people who don't see themselves as homophobic (and in all fairness, they're really not the worst kind, that's for certain) but maintain positions that clearly are. They were basically saying marriage is a man-and-woman institution that's always been there, that marriage was for procreation, that two men together isn't "natural". I tried my best to correct them on a number of things (especially the unnatural bit) and explain why it was important that marriage would be an option for gay people too. Alicia helped me out a little which felt nice, but on the whole - it felt so uncomfortable. (Btw, anyone has a comprehensive way of explaining why there's a symbolic difference between signing a civil union in a Court House and being married at the City Hall?)
It's strange because I've been a stronger and stronger advocate for gay rights as time has gone by, and most of the time I manage to stay very cheerful about it all - I wasn't brought down by the extremist at the demonstrations at the State House, I've heard awful things in school that I've managed to let slide. But tonight - maybe it's because those people (who were very nice otherwise, not questioning this) sent me a strange message : "we tolerate you, but we're still better than you are". It wasn't like they were hateful or anything, and obviously it wasn't what they were overtly saying, especially since I don't think they realized that I was gay. It made me feel more distressed than usual, and it's not a good feeling at all.
I don't think I brought up the topic myself (edit : I remember, I actually made a joke about how cheap the PACS - our civil union - was, probably forgetting for a sec I didn't know my audience, and they picked up on it. Funny part is, I think originally they were being sort of offended on the behalf of the gay community), and I wonder - should I just let it go when it comes up like this? Should I keep talking, keep trying to convince people of something that should be so obvious? I'm tired of it and I'm tired of having to justify myself, feeling like I have to explain that I want a family, I want my relationship to be officially recognized - why isn't it taken for granted like usual? It wasn't really that conversation was oppressive or anything - they listened to what I was saying and were willing to see my point - but it was like - for once I didn't want to have to talk about this. I didn't want to have to look like the activist lesbian once more to my school friends. Do straight people understand it's not activism? Do they understand it's just that it hurts, so I need to try and correct people wishing (maybe hopelessly) it's going to help? Do they see that I'm still going to go and say, I'm a lesbian, no matter what, but that others won't? Do they see that it's precisely why we have "gay places", why some gay people just don't bother trying to be friends with straight people? Do they understand how much better it feels for me to know I'm going at a party at a gay friend's, simply because I know I won't have that sort of discussion? Do they understand how much everything they say affects us gay people personally, not just theoritically? Do they understand that I don't respond to those discussions because I'm obsessed, but because otherwise those discussions painfully discard me and what I'm worth ?
Don't get me confused, I'm not ranting against straight people in general - I have straight friends I adore, and you know that because some of you are reading me right now.
twixou's enthusiasm is always a great mood booster, and all of you have always been so supportive and I'm ever so grateful for you. Even in my circle of "less close" friends, Brice and Mélanie are a typical example of a straight couple I adore, because they acknowledge me and my couple as much as they would with anyone else. (Which by the way doesn't mean I think we should never debate about the gay community...)
I wish Fan' was here tonight, or that I could have gone to spend some time with "gay-friendly" people for a while. It's silly because it was not a long conversation at all, yet the ill-fitting feeling remains, probably partly because I feel like no one acknowledged how hurtful it can be for me to have to go through that conversation. Tonight strained me somehow.
Early in the evening I got a bad feeling because Alexandre, Barbara's boyfriend, was talking of working in the military and how it was "easier for gays". This can seem so ironic at first considering how homophobic the army tends to be, but what he really meant was that working in the military made it more complicated to have a family, so it seemed like he was making the assumption that gays can't have a family - I tried to correct him but he didn't hear right and I didn't want to press the issue, especially since he wasn't being like overtly homophobic or anything.
Later on though, I somehow found myself discussing gay marriage. It's funny because this crowd seemed to be typical of people who don't see themselves as homophobic (and in all fairness, they're really not the worst kind, that's for certain) but maintain positions that clearly are. They were basically saying marriage is a man-and-woman institution that's always been there, that marriage was for procreation, that two men together isn't "natural". I tried my best to correct them on a number of things (especially the unnatural bit) and explain why it was important that marriage would be an option for gay people too. Alicia helped me out a little which felt nice, but on the whole - it felt so uncomfortable. (Btw, anyone has a comprehensive way of explaining why there's a symbolic difference between signing a civil union in a Court House and being married at the City Hall?)
It's strange because I've been a stronger and stronger advocate for gay rights as time has gone by, and most of the time I manage to stay very cheerful about it all - I wasn't brought down by the extremist at the demonstrations at the State House, I've heard awful things in school that I've managed to let slide. But tonight - maybe it's because those people (who were very nice otherwise, not questioning this) sent me a strange message : "we tolerate you, but we're still better than you are". It wasn't like they were hateful or anything, and obviously it wasn't what they were overtly saying, especially since I don't think they realized that I was gay. It made me feel more distressed than usual, and it's not a good feeling at all.
I don't think I brought up the topic myself (edit : I remember, I actually made a joke about how cheap the PACS - our civil union - was, probably forgetting for a sec I didn't know my audience, and they picked up on it. Funny part is, I think originally they were being sort of offended on the behalf of the gay community), and I wonder - should I just let it go when it comes up like this? Should I keep talking, keep trying to convince people of something that should be so obvious? I'm tired of it and I'm tired of having to justify myself, feeling like I have to explain that I want a family, I want my relationship to be officially recognized - why isn't it taken for granted like usual? It wasn't really that conversation was oppressive or anything - they listened to what I was saying and were willing to see my point - but it was like - for once I didn't want to have to talk about this. I didn't want to have to look like the activist lesbian once more to my school friends. Do straight people understand it's not activism? Do they understand it's just that it hurts, so I need to try and correct people wishing (maybe hopelessly) it's going to help? Do they see that I'm still going to go and say, I'm a lesbian, no matter what, but that others won't? Do they see that it's precisely why we have "gay places", why some gay people just don't bother trying to be friends with straight people? Do they understand how much better it feels for me to know I'm going at a party at a gay friend's, simply because I know I won't have that sort of discussion? Do they understand how much everything they say affects us gay people personally, not just theoritically? Do they understand that I don't respond to those discussions because I'm obsessed, but because otherwise those discussions painfully discard me and what I'm worth ?
Don't get me confused, I'm not ranting against straight people in general - I have straight friends I adore, and you know that because some of you are reading me right now.
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I wish Fan' was here tonight, or that I could have gone to spend some time with "gay-friendly" people for a while. It's silly because it was not a long conversation at all, yet the ill-fitting feeling remains, probably partly because I feel like no one acknowledged how hurtful it can be for me to have to go through that conversation. Tonight strained me somehow.
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Date: 2005-05-14 04:47 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-05-15 04:18 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-05-15 04:05 am (UTC)Et pour le reste, j'espère que notre discussion ne t'a pas fait cette effet mardi...-_-
Non, pas du tout. Sans doute parce que, comme tous les BR d'ailleurs, tu ne m'as jamais donné l'impression de considérer que mon couple avec Fan' est moins important qu'un couple hétéro (bon pas de bol dans les faits on est les seules à être dans un couple de longue durée connu de tous, mais si vous aviez cette attitude ça se verrait de toute façon). Maintenant je pense que, comme la quasi-totalité des hétéros, il y a des choses qui ne sont pas évidentes à voir pour vous - mais ça en soi ce n'est pas un problème, surtout vu que vous êtes très nombreux à faire des efforts pour écouter et comprendre le point de vue homo. Finalement c'est ce qui compte le plus. Comme je l'ai dit, je ne suis pas du tout contre le débat - même ce que tu disais, comme quoi certains homos sont un peu trop militants, au fond ça se débat, et même à l'intérieur de la "communauté" homo. Après je ne crois pas que ce soit le cas, dans le cas de l'activisme utile (ACT-UP qui balance de la peinture rouge sur les lycées ça par exemple pour moi ça n'a aucun intérêt), mais on a aussi le droit d'avoir des avis différents. ;) Du moment que tu comprends (ou même que tu fais un effort pour comprendre) ce que je te dis cf le besoin de s'affirmer à chaque instant dans un monde hétérosexiste, ça ne m'embête pas.
Je pense que ce qui m'a gêné hier soir, outre le fait que je les connais peu donc forcément leurs paroles ont une importance plus déterminante qu'avec des gens que je connais mieux, c'est que, deux-trois fois, leur discours m'a envoyé le message "ton couple sera toujours inférieur au moins". Peut-être qu'ils ne le diraient pas comme ça parce qu'ils se rendraient compte, dit de cette manière, que c'est violent. Et sans doute que je perçois plus facilement ce message parce que ma position me "force" à être à l'écoute comme ça tout le temps (et encore moi sans doute moins que les gens qui sont plus hésitants à faire leur coming out en permanence à tout le monde). Ils bénéficeraient de beaucoup à se rendre compte combien ça peut blesser autour d'eux, mais je préfère encore qu'ils aient eu ce discours sans se rendre compte que j'étais concernée, et je n'ai pas été les chercher parce que c'était trop de travail, j'aurais eu l'impression de faire le boulet dans la soirée, et que c'est fatiguant, émotionellement, de devoir faire ça. Je trouve que c'est exactement ce qui va être le plus difficile à combattre au final - une fois que les gens n'oseront plus insulter, attaquer les homos pour ça, ce sera ça le problème. Et c'est très similaire au racisme "sous-jacent" plutôt qu'ouvert qu'il existe parfois aujourd'hui, à mon avis.
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Date: 2005-05-15 06:40 am (UTC)Et le problème c'est que du coup, il ne fait pas la différence, lui, entre le fait qu'il soit lourd et le fait qu'il soit bronzé...
Oui, c'est le problème des minorités en tout genre, ça devient assez facile de se victimiser et de tout confondre. Je me suis fait accuser de biphobie l'autre jour ce qui m'a doucement fait rire mais bon :) (quoique je ne dis pas que je n'ai pas toujours des stéréotypes coincés dans la tête à propos des bi). Bref tout à fait d'accord là dessus, minorité ou non, faut arrêter de croire que le monde entier nous déteste parce qu'on est différent, surtout que ça ne fait pas du tout avancer les choses.
Mais d'un autre côté, marcher sur des oeufs sous prétexte que peut-être la personne en face de vous est gay, je ne trouve pas que ça aide.
Je ne pense pas non plus, et d'ailleurs je l'ai dit, je préfère avoir entendu ce que j'ai entendu hier soir parce que ça m'a donné l'opportunité de corriger quelques petits trucs (pas sûr que l'info soit passé mais au moins on a dialogué). Maintenant j'ai un petit problème avec l'idée de "marcher sur des oeufs"... disons qu'en fait vu que ce qui m'a dérangé c'est qu'ils me donnent l'impression que mon couple était moins valables que le leur, je ne comprends pas bien comment tu peux "marcher sur des oeufs" en évitant de parler de ça? Si tu fais un minimum attention, ces moments là sont assez faciles à réperer, et puis - je ne sais pas, tu considères faire attention à ne pas sous-entendre que les blancs sont mieux que les noirs comme marcher sur des oeufs? (question honnête) Parce que je pense que pour moi ça relève de la même chose.
Cela dit je suis effectivement pas pour que les gens se retiennent de parler d'homosexualité devant moi de peur de choquer, et il y a plein de discussions que je suis prête à avoir sans me sentir particulièrement attaquée ou blessée. Mais visiblement me faire comprendre (de manière indirecte, encore ce serait de l'homophobie pure et dure ce serait plus facile à repousser) que mon couple est quand même moins valable je dois avouer c'est un peu difficile.
Quand tu connais quelqu'un, que tu as reconnu ses qualités et ses défauts, que tu adhères ou pas à ses croyances, comment tu peux le détester?
Ca je ne suis pas certaine... quoique en y réfléchissant, disons que je pense que c'est impossible de la détester complètement, mais c'est possible de ne jamais développer de relation amicales parce que nos opinions diffèrent trop, même si individuellement on est des gens pas mal.
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Date: 2005-05-15 06:58 am (UTC)Pour revenir trois secondes sur l'homophobie, tu peux répondre à mon paragraphe là ? :
disons qu'en fait vu que ce qui m'a dérangé c'est qu'ils me donnent l'impression que mon couple était moins valables que le leur, je ne comprends pas bien comment tu peux "marcher sur des oeufs" en évitant de parler de ça? Si tu fais un minimum attention, ces moments là sont assez faciles à réperer, et puis - je ne sais pas, tu considères faire attention à ne pas sous-entendre que les blancs sont mieux que les noirs comme marcher sur des oeufs?
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Date: 2005-05-15 07:17 am (UTC)Je ne veux pas que les gens arrêtent d'exprimer des pensées que leur couple a plus de valeur que le mien parce qu'ils savent je suis gay - je souhaiterais qu'ils arrêtent de le penser, comme je pense que la plupart des blancs aujourd'hui ont arrêté de penser en discutant avec des gens de couleurs qu'ils étaient mieux qu'eux. Peut-être que j'ai trop d'espoir... après honnêtement j'ai peu de compassion pour les hétéros qui doivent réfléchir et s'autocensurer pour éviter de me dire que leur couple est mieux que le mien - parce que je pense que s'ils remettaient trois secondes en question leurs préjugés ils se rendraient compte que c'est aussi infondé (sp?) que le racisme...
C'est intéressant parce que je tiens à faire savoir que je suis homo ne serait-ce que pour faire passer le message que le sujet n'est pas tabou pour moi, en même temps du coup je me protège des homophobes "soft" ce qui n'est pas du tout mon but premier.
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Date: 2005-05-15 02:08 am (UTC)Anyway, *hugs* again, and also remember the meme when I had to say what I adored about you ? I hope you didn't get me wrong, when I was saying I adored your activism. I meant for organizations like the MAG, and for things in general, not only for gay rights. Even if you want to defend your rights and I think you're right to do it.
*ahem* Now I should get back to work... :p
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Date: 2005-05-15 03:46 am (UTC)What scares me a lot is that I'm straight but I can totally relate to what you're saying ! :p
*g* I think it's great, actually, and it shows you're able to dissociate yourself from who you are to an extent - as Abigail Garner talks in her book, even though you're straight, you're able to see what your straight privileges are (maybe not all of them, but then even I realized recently I had privileges simply because I grew up with straight parents... anyway). And beyond the issues about homosexuality I think it really shows you have an essential capacity : to put yourself in someone else's position. That's a great step towards being able to respect and talk to people who are different instead of hating them and feeling threatened by them.
I hope you didn't get me wrong, when I was saying I adored your activism. I meant for organizations like the MAG, and for things in general, not only for gay rights. Even if you want to defend your rights and I think you're right to do it.
Don't worry, I didn't get you wrong. Some people use "activist" as a derogatory term, which I usually find either an ungrateful position (for examples when some gays themselves say gays shouldn't be so activist, it seems ridiculous to an extent because they benefit from the result of that activism in so many ways) or a proof you don't realize what it's like to not have equal rights (and therefore how important it might feel to fight for them instead of sitting back and waiting for the majority to feel like maybe they could do something). I know it's not your case and it's really my case, too, because most of the people I admire are activists.
I guess I used the term here as those people would, because the thing is - it's never something openly said, but with some straight people I get the feeling it's fine for me to mention my girlfriend, some even have questions they ask me, but after that they get a little bored (even annoyed?) when I talk about it, especially if it's about homophobia - as I said, since they don't see themselves as homophobic, it feels like they consider I'm being fussy. And I don't think I can share how much it affects me.
*ahem* Now I should get back to work... :p
Oh, er, yeah, me too. ;) Good luck with that...
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Date: 2005-06-01 02:41 pm (UTC)Anyway, about the last thing you said (people getting bored and all), I know what you mean. When you're straight you don't always think that life could be a nightmare for gay people. I know some of my straight friends think it's annoying that gay people fight for their rights, and they think we see homosexuals too much, you know what I mean ? Of course I don't say they're right, just that they think gay people should be more "quiet". I think they should trade their life with gay people for a few days...
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Date: 2005-06-01 09:48 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-06-02 07:41 am (UTC)And now each time I see a guy and a girl making out in a subway or in any public place I think about you, "Joey would be happy to see this..." ;)
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Date: 2005-06-10 10:44 pm (UTC)Seriously though, actual making out, when not cute (it rarely is, especially when you don't know the two people), tends to annoy me - partly because I know almost no gay people could do this. I can't help it. -_-
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Date: 2005-05-15 03:58 am (UTC)Pour moi, ce que tu fais, ce n'est pas de l'activisme... ça l'est quand tu fais tes meetings et tes présentations... Là, au milieu de personnes que tu considères comme des amis, c'est simplement de la défense de soi, de tes valeurs et de ce en quoi tu crois...
bref hugs and mile pogan
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Date: 2005-05-15 04:16 am (UTC)Yup et exactement comme je l'ai dit à Twixou, je suis extrêmement reconnaissante auprès des hétéros comme vous deux, qui n'ont pas connexion personelle (par là je sous-entends sutout la famille proche je pense) avec des homos. Heureusement qu'il y a des gens comme vous parce que vous allez beaucoup nous aider à faire comprendre aux gens pourquoi c'est de la discrimination sans donner l'impression que vous essayez de "gagner" des avantages ou une conneries du genre.
Et je sais que ça peut devenir frustrant / douloureux d'être au milieu de gens fermés d'esprit quand on est touché par le problème, et ça ça dépasse la problématique homosexuelle.
c'est simplement de la défense de soi, de tes valeurs et de ce en quoi tu crois...
Je ne sais même pas si c'est une défense de mes valeurs... d'une manière ou d'une autre, l'homosexualité est irréversible, ce n'est pas quelque chose en lequel on croit (et tu le sais, je le sais ;). C'est très étrange les discussions du genre parce que finalement qu'est ce que je défends? Le fait que j'existe et que mon engagement à Fan' n'est pas moins important que celui de la fille qui était avec son mec depuis un an? Je défends mon droit d'être prise au sérieux alors qu'il ne s'agit pas d'une opinion mais d'un fait? Pas n'importe lequel, ça touche à mon existence dans son plus profond, quelque part. C'est étrange que j'ai même à faire ça, je crois que c'est ça qui fait mal. Cette impression de devoir se justifier, d'expliquer pourquoi mon couple ne vaut pas moins bien qu'un couple hétéro, tout en ayant l'impression que ça fait chier tout le monde que je le fasse. Comme si en plus de ne pas me reconnaître aussi correctement, il y avait aussi le poids de ne pas devoir en parler trop.
Merci pour les hugs c'est toujours bon à prendre ;)
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Date: 2005-05-15 04:07 am (UTC)Going through it (I wouldn't say reading) I feel like giving you my support because (and that's your fault ;)) I'm kinda THE "gay representative" among my friends. I'm the only one that actually know about you guys ;) And sometimes it's kinda hard to hear what people can think. Actually I never met anyone who was really homophobic and not opened to conversation (I'm guessing that's because I never talked to the "sport etude Judo"), and if I did meet someone like that, the desire of smashing the person's head against the wall would be overwhelming ^^ ... yeah, I don't like "talking" with stupid people :D
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Date: 2005-05-15 04:33 am (UTC)And sometimes it's kinda hard to hear what people can think.
What are you thinking about exactly? Any conversation / words you can remember? And yeah, your friends are definitely not the most homophobic, it doesn't mean they can't say hurtful things sometimes.
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Date: 2005-05-16 10:12 am (UTC)Anyway, *hugs* to you, and also *hugs* for
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Date: 2005-05-16 10:21 am (UTC)Pour tes amies de longue date, oui, c'est sûr, il y en a sûrement avec qui ça va crée une sorte de "gap"... cela dit faut pas généraliser, et tu le montres toi même en parlant de twixou, le prob c'est pas les hétéros en général, c'est eux qui, même qu'en partie, n'accepte pas réellement. Je viens de lire un bouquin qui m'a pas mal éclairé là dessus, sur les enfants de couple homo, et le fait qu'il ne faut pas remplacer la honte d'être gay chez les enfants par la "honte" d'être hétéro. Je pense que ça t'intéresserait drôlement!
C'est un gros challenge pour les personnes LGBT je pense (moi y compris bien sûr), continuer à aller vers les hétéros en général alors que tellement continuent d'être (involontairement pour beaucoup) homophobes. Mais c'est important aussi... heureusement que les gens comme twixou et Los existe décidement ;)
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Date: 2005-05-16 10:52 am (UTC)Oui, c'est comme quand je sors de BeLonG To, ou d'une rencontre avec ceux du forum dans un pub gay, et que je me retrouve au milieu de tous ces hétéros, je me sens presque perdue.
Sur que le livre me plairait !
Il faudrait cloner Los et Alexia ! ;) Enfin c'est vrai qu'essayer de faire évoluer les idées de ses amis c'est déjà un bon début. D'ailleurs je suis super contente de la réaction d'Emmanuelle (
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Date: 2005-06-01 02:30 pm (UTC)Merci pr l'idée de me cloner, mais je crois qu'une alexia c'est déja bcp... ;)
A propos de ce que tu disais Noelle comme quoi dés que tu sors des BR et des gay friendly tu te retrouve dans la "jungle", c'est vrai que même moi ça me géne d'étre avec des pas-gay friendly parce que j'aime pas leurs remarques et tt. C'est tellement plus simple d'étre avec des gens qui pense (un minimum) comme toi. Même si je suis pas gay jpréfére étre avec des gays pour pas avoir à écouter des remarques homophobes et tt. Enfin bon en ce moment je suis ds mon trip "suis-je vraiment hétéro ?" dc jme pose peut-étre trop de questions... :p
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Date: 2005-06-01 09:50 pm (UTC)Qui est la fille qui te fait te poser des questions...?? :-p Ou bien c'est juste que, comme de nombreux BR, ton cerveau fonctionne et se pose bcp trop de questions des fois?? :)
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Date: 2005-06-02 07:48 am (UTC)Lol nan ya pas de filles. ;) C'est juste qu'avec tout les coming out chez les BR en ce moment jme demande combien de tps encore jvais pouvoir échapper à tout ça. :p
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Date: 2005-06-03 11:12 am (UTC)Fais gaffe, moi c'était y'a une an, et on voit ce que ça donne un an plus tard ! ;p
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Date: 2005-05-23 09:18 pm (UTC)I understand completely what you mean about sometimes not wanting to talk about gay rights. It's a little different for me cause I do like guys more than girls, so I can, I guess, "pass" for straight, but I always get the urge to make people understand that there shouldn't even be a term "gay rights." It doesn't make sense that, especially in a place like America which prides itself on its tolerance, a group of people are singled out to be discriminated. There is no reason for anyone to say "You can't have the same rights as me because of something that you can't change." It happened with skin color (in fact, it's still happening) and it happens with sexual orientation.
There are times when I just despair. I listen to the things that people say and I wonder how these people can function with such hypocrisy and hate in their system. There are some times when I don't say anything and then I feel guilty afterwards.
The point of this (getting to be rather long) rant is that it's okay if you feel a little tired of being THE ACTIVIST. You can not be the activist for a little while. The fact that you say anything at all helps so many people that you can afford to take a break.
It's interesting cause some of my gay friends at Hopkins find heterosexuality "disgusting" or "gross." Those lead to some fun discussions. :)