Where am I at, and who are you?
May. 29th, 2005 05:56 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
greenie_breizhSo yeah, I need to write a little something about what seems to be pretty much the definitive results of this election.
It's funny, because I don't actually believe much in that Constitution, in the sense that it *is* pretty unsatisfying and too liberal for my own taste. Yet I can't help being (once more?) disappointed by the vote of my fellow citizens. I can't say I voted knowing exactly everything this constitution implies, because I don't think anyone could, anyway. I do feel like I voted knowing what the general stakes were.
The thing is - as I just told![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
stampinground - I can't think nationally. I'm not sure exactly where it comes from, but I can never think only of France. And - I like Europe. I like the idea of countries getting together, trying to work things out. Going forward together. Being stronger together. And we've started doing so through economics. It's a doubtful choice if you want my opinion, but it's been working, and maybe it's what matters most in that case. And - if there is one reason why I was looking forward to having a European Constitution, it's because it does more. By simply exisiting, it creates something more. It creates Europe. The real one. One where we're tied by the same words, by the same main beliefs.
One where we all say together, we refuse to discriminate against someone based on their gender, religion, sexual orientation, political beliefs. If only just that... it means something to me.
The Constitution was a compromise between 15 countries. A compromise kind of always sucks. It's doomed to, when you're trying to satisfy countries that are as different as Danemark, Poland, the UK and France. We all see things differently. I'm attached to some things we have in France, but something in me refuses to say we have the best system. I can't help thinking, no matter how left-wing I am, that Nothern Europe countries such as Finland or Sweden do better socially than we have ever done, and yet they're pretty liberal, economically-speaking. Maybe they've got something figured out that we haven't. I want to ask them and learn from them.
Rejecting that Constitution... what are we saying? What are we doing? Are we going to draft a new one? Is it realistic to think we'll reach a better compromise now that Europe has 25 members? Is it realistic to think we can write something less liberal when liberalism is what Europe is founded on? When the majority of the countries are right-wing right now? Can you really write something more socially advanced when countries like Poland are so far behind already?
More importantly... what now? What happens next? How long will it take, now, to build a political Europe, if we've just rejected it?
I think I'm a little annoyed because the wound from 2001 still hurts. Because I'm only 19, but I trust politicians more than most of my fellow citizens, because at least politicians (speaking in the general sense - Joss knows individually there are some politicians I hate with a deep passion) get involved. I feel like most people now... they vote (if they do) and that's it. That doesn't really make you a citizen, does it? And to be fair, at least for this elections there were debates. Not well handled for the most part, but it was a start.
My question is, of all the people who just rejected the constitution because they want a Europe that's more social / less liberal, how many are going to actually DO something to help change the constitution? How many are going to get any information about how they can involved? And how many are just going to sit there and wait for a new draft for come along?
Maybe that's what bothers me the most tonight. Voting yes induced a lot of things that I'm not sure I was going to be happy with, or proud of. But I did think it was a step forward. We refused to make that step forward tonight, and it's fine for lots of reason. But I feel a lot of the discontent that explains the victory of the no is not going to transform into anything productive. And that bothers me. Because I don't like the idea of refusing something, but then not helping finding a new, better way to go forward. And I'm afraid that's exactly what's going to happen...
After all, the abstention rate at the local elections a month after LePen got to the second round was as big as ever. Can I ever trust my fellow citizens to get involved?
What about me... am I even getting involved myself?
I want to build something strong. A political identity. I want the Spanish, the English, the German, the Dannish, the Lithuanian... to be my fellow citizens. I can't see the future any other way... Maybe I'm trying to tie myself in. Maybe I think if I feel I'm an actual European citizen, in the strongest political sense of the word, I won't feel like going away. I won't need to cross the ocean to feel at home. Why don't I ever feel at home here? Am I losing my ideals for settling for a compromise?
EDIT : Just read that post attwxiou's and I think it's pretty interesting to read. I'd like to hear the thoughts of those of you who voted no.
EDIT as I read my Flist : I read that inanna_tarawiel's comments, and I do agree. If there is one thing that I do hope tonight, as strongly as I can, is that my reasoning was wrong all along and that those of you who voted no because you want to build something better were right.
It's funny, because I don't actually believe much in that Constitution, in the sense that it *is* pretty unsatisfying and too liberal for my own taste. Yet I can't help being (once more?) disappointed by the vote of my fellow citizens. I can't say I voted knowing exactly everything this constitution implies, because I don't think anyone could, anyway. I do feel like I voted knowing what the general stakes were.
The thing is - as I just told
stampinground - I can't think nationally. I'm not sure exactly where it comes from, but I can never think only of France. And - I like Europe. I like the idea of countries getting together, trying to work things out. Going forward together. Being stronger together. And we've started doing so through economics. It's a doubtful choice if you want my opinion, but it's been working, and maybe it's what matters most in that case. And - if there is one reason why I was looking forward to having a European Constitution, it's because it does more. By simply exisiting, it creates something more. It creates Europe. The real one. One where we're tied by the same words, by the same main beliefs. One where we all say together, we refuse to discriminate against someone based on their gender, religion, sexual orientation, political beliefs. If only just that... it means something to me.
The Constitution was a compromise between 15 countries. A compromise kind of always sucks. It's doomed to, when you're trying to satisfy countries that are as different as Danemark, Poland, the UK and France. We all see things differently. I'm attached to some things we have in France, but something in me refuses to say we have the best system. I can't help thinking, no matter how left-wing I am, that Nothern Europe countries such as Finland or Sweden do better socially than we have ever done, and yet they're pretty liberal, economically-speaking. Maybe they've got something figured out that we haven't. I want to ask them and learn from them.
Rejecting that Constitution... what are we saying? What are we doing? Are we going to draft a new one? Is it realistic to think we'll reach a better compromise now that Europe has 25 members? Is it realistic to think we can write something less liberal when liberalism is what Europe is founded on? When the majority of the countries are right-wing right now? Can you really write something more socially advanced when countries like Poland are so far behind already?
More importantly... what now? What happens next? How long will it take, now, to build a political Europe, if we've just rejected it?
I think I'm a little annoyed because the wound from 2001 still hurts. Because I'm only 19, but I trust politicians more than most of my fellow citizens, because at least politicians (speaking in the general sense - Joss knows individually there are some politicians I hate with a deep passion) get involved. I feel like most people now... they vote (if they do) and that's it. That doesn't really make you a citizen, does it? And to be fair, at least for this elections there were debates. Not well handled for the most part, but it was a start.
My question is, of all the people who just rejected the constitution because they want a Europe that's more social / less liberal, how many are going to actually DO something to help change the constitution? How many are going to get any information about how they can involved? And how many are just going to sit there and wait for a new draft for come along?
Maybe that's what bothers me the most tonight. Voting yes induced a lot of things that I'm not sure I was going to be happy with, or proud of. But I did think it was a step forward. We refused to make that step forward tonight, and it's fine for lots of reason. But I feel a lot of the discontent that explains the victory of the no is not going to transform into anything productive. And that bothers me. Because I don't like the idea of refusing something, but then not helping finding a new, better way to go forward. And I'm afraid that's exactly what's going to happen...
After all, the abstention rate at the local elections a month after LePen got to the second round was as big as ever. Can I ever trust my fellow citizens to get involved?
What about me... am I even getting involved myself?
I want to build something strong. A political identity. I want the Spanish, the English, the German, the Dannish, the Lithuanian... to be my fellow citizens. I can't see the future any other way... Maybe I'm trying to tie myself in. Maybe I think if I feel I'm an actual European citizen, in the strongest political sense of the word, I won't feel like going away. I won't need to cross the ocean to feel at home. Why don't I ever feel at home here? Am I losing my ideals for settling for a compromise?
EDIT : Just read that post at
twxiou's and I think it's pretty interesting to read. I'd like to hear the thoughts of those of you who voted no.EDIT as I read my Flist : I read that in
anna_tarawiel's comments, and I do agree. If there is one thing that I do hope tonight, as strongly as I can, is that my reasoning was wrong all along and that those of you who voted no because you want to build something better were right.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2005-05-29 03:25 pm (UTC)J'ai tendance à rejoindre ton raisonnement... plutôt ton point de vue sur l'Europe. Je n'aime pas l'idée d'une France en autarcie, j'aime l'idée d'un pays fondu aux autres, des frontières floues voire abolies, et au début j'étais partie pour voter en faveur de la Constitution. Je me suis d'ailleurs sentie assez mal tout à l'heure dans l'isoloir, je ne savais plus vraiment ce que je devais faire... parce que tu as raison, un compromis entre 15 pays ne sera jamais parfait, et que rien ne dit que ce que l'on nous proposera ensuite sera mieux. J'en avais quelque peu conscience à ce moment là et ça ajouté à l'envie, vraiment, de voir se construire l'Europe, ça m'a fait plutôt mal de voter non. Mais je crois que je l'ai fait pour des principes et des ideaux (ces ideaux qu'à mon avis tu n'as pas du tout perdu ou rejeté en votant pour un compromis, puisque c'est justement pour les défendre que tu as fait ton choix) Parce que certaines choses me dérangent tout de même énormément, dans ce compromis. C'est pour ça que je ne pense pas que mes raisons de voter non soient moins bonnes (mais loin d'être meilleures pour autant) que celles de voter oui, les deux conséquences amenaient leurs lots d'avantage et d'inconvénients et on ne peut pas dire qu'on nous ai facilité l'accès à l'info pour faire notre choix... Au final je ne suis pas certaine qu'il y ait de bonne solution... J'ai l'impression (sans doute faussée, je suis assez naive et finalement pas très informée en ce qui concerne la politique... en ce qui concerne plein de choses) d'aller voter non pas en me demandant quel choix fera le mieux avancer les choses que "quel choix limitera au mieux la casse"... Et que je vote oui ou non ça reste une triste impression
no subject
Date: 2005-05-29 10:21 pm (UTC)Bref ma grande question reste, c'était une question de limiter la casse (peu importe le vote), je suis d'accord, mais - comment on avance maintenant avec le non? Avec le oui je le voyais - on pouvait travailler à amender la constitution, élire des représentants plus puissants qu'aujourd'hui, faire des pétitions...
Aujourd'hui je ne vois pas ça, et ça m'inquiète.
no subject
Date: 2005-05-29 05:11 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-05-29 10:30 pm (UTC)L'Europe que l'on essaye de construire ne renie pas les différences entre les pays, les différentes traditions. Quand je parle d'homogénéité, je pense à la lutte contre les discriminations, à la liberté de religion, d'expression. Je pense à des notions qui sont à mon avis fondamentales et qui peuvent aider à aller de l'avant. C'est intéressant parce qu'à aucun moment avec le processus européen je ne me sens menacée dans ma nation, menacée de voir ma culture changer / disparaître, menacée de devoir changer. Peut-être parce, une fois de plus, je ne crois pas aux Nations, et je crois plus en un travail commun pour arriver à un monde meilleur, plutôt que de s'accrocher à son identité nationale quitte à ne rien améliorer (en plus moi vu ce qui se passe en France ces 4 dernières années - soyons gentille avec le PS même s'ils ne le méritent pas - je n'ai pas l'impression qu'à l'intérieur de la nation on s'améliore des masses)...
no subject
Date: 2005-05-29 11:39 pm (UTC)Et puis quand est-ce que le Royaume Uni se fer
argh,, wild keyboard...
Date: 2005-05-29 11:40 pm (UTC)Re: argh,, wild keyboard...
Date: 2005-05-29 11:55 pm (UTC)Qui vivra verra, je suppose... :(
Quant au changement de premier ministre, suis d'accord, c'est une décision totalement vide de sens si la politique ne change pas dans le fond, et vu le passé de Chirac, je n'ai aucune raison de croire qu'il va changer sa politique. ARGH celui là rien que d'y penser ça me donne de l'urticaire. Comme j'ai hâte à 2007... (et encore j'ai la sale impression que cette election là aussi finira par me laisser un goût amer dans la bouche...)
Re: argh,, wild keyboard...
Date: 2005-05-30 10:27 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-05-30 05:27 pm (UTC)But keep in mind that there are other countries (9 I think) voting on this treaty. In the netherlands, the "no" has been ahead in the polls for months now, same for the UK. Ireland and Danemark are known for their Euro-scepticism too. So even if France had voted "yes", I'm not sure things would have been much different.
My guess is they're gonna come up with a new treaty at some point (it's gonna be hell to write) and it will be signed by the head of each state like they did for Nice and Amsterdam. Will it still be a "constitutional treaty" ? Will it still have the same symbolic weight ? That's anyone's guess.
I hope my European ideal will be achieved while I'm still alive :)
guess who
Date: 2005-06-10 04:58 pm (UTC)Re: guess who
Date: 2005-06-10 10:01 pm (UTC)Of course I don't mind your friending me - and I'm off to friend you too!!!!! Oh, and thanks for the LJ look - my wonderful girlfriend is to thank partly since she paid for the account. :) :)
Woot woot!!!! Sorry for the overly exclamative comment, but I'm so happy to hear you're on LJ now!!!!! :) :) :)