I think there is a necessary sense of surrender in a relationship, and it is the degree to which you feel you are actually losing something that defines the health of a relationship. But that is a very very good barometer, and I think one that Zac and Van are quite determined to excel on.
First sentence: Agreed 100%. We're always defining ourselves through others and the relationships we have with them. In a sense, it's no different in a romantic relationship. And I think that's fine, I don't think there's necessarily such a thing as a more authentic self when you're on your own, anyway. But when you start to resent - more or less strongly, more or less consciously - the other for the choices you feel you have to make because they're there... that's probably going to be a problem. Second sentence: I get that impression from them, too, and to be honest I don't think their relationship would have lasted this long if it wasn't the case. Not considering what they've had to go through, and I only know of what's been public or what's common knowledge. That's something else that I really respect about them. They're working and doing their own thing and I'm sure it's not always easy, but they're supporting each other through it all and that's pretty mature of them.
I always see Zac and Van as the same - same goodness, same genuineness, etc - and the fact that people outside of select forums treat them as super different people, omg-he's-so-awesome/omg-she's-such-a-lame-ho, is aggravating. I don't really understand how people can look at it that way. Maybe it's because Vanessa has been growing on me through my interest in Zac (which in no way means I think her value lies solely in being his girlfriend - precisely the opposite), I don't know, but it's so obvious that they care deeply for each other and there's a reason for that. They work together, even when one is not right there. It's fascinating to me that they seem to have fairly different personalities and ways of interacting with the world and yet at some base level, like you said, there's clearly something that brings them together, a genuine niceness and a certain maturity about how they're handling life... and that way that they make each other so earnestly happy. And I think that's all crucial to why they've been able to grow together, not necessarily in the same ways and doing the same things, but together anyway, in a manner that enhanced each of them individually and their couple at the same time. I don't know. In a way, they're like this beautiful puzzle to me. I have no clue how they've made it work under so much pressure
Also: I love what you said about how the nude scandal must have affected them, you put it so perfectly. I'm sure as a result they're both far more guarded than they should have to be. I have honestly no words for how much I hate the way people have reacted to this and to this day feel entitled to their reaction; it's maddening to me in so many ways. The whole concept of sluttiness is ridiculous and I despise the way it restrains girls and women - it bothers me enough all the ways in which so many women feel like they can't desire certain things or in certain ways. So I can't imagine what it's like when on top of the pressure that society puts onto all of us, you find yourself at the center of a group execution in honor of the slut discourse, with you as principal culprit. It makes me so angry she would have to go through that and had to fucking apologize to the world on top of it all, while no one apologized to her. I hope that it hasn't touched her and her desires too much, or at least that she's worked through that, and that in private she still does whatever feels good and whatever she enjoys, because I hate to think that it might have affected that profoundly. (And I realize there's a good chance it has, but yeah.)
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Date: 2009-10-11 02:09 am (UTC)First sentence: Agreed 100%. We're always defining ourselves through others and the relationships we have with them. In a sense, it's no different in a romantic relationship. And I think that's fine, I don't think there's necessarily such a thing as a more authentic self when you're on your own, anyway. But when you start to resent - more or less strongly, more or less consciously - the other for the choices you feel you have to make because they're there... that's probably going to be a problem.
Second sentence: I get that impression from them, too, and to be honest I don't think their relationship would have lasted this long if it wasn't the case. Not considering what they've had to go through, and I only know of what's been public or what's common knowledge. That's something else that I really respect about them. They're working and doing their own thing and I'm sure it's not always easy, but they're supporting each other through it all and that's pretty mature of them.
I always see Zac and Van as the same - same goodness, same genuineness, etc - and the fact that people outside of select forums treat them as super different people, omg-he's-so-awesome/omg-she's-such-a-lame-ho, is aggravating.
I don't really understand how people can look at it that way. Maybe it's because Vanessa has been growing on me through my interest in Zac (which in no way means I think her value lies solely in being his girlfriend - precisely the opposite), I don't know, but it's so obvious that they care deeply for each other and there's a reason for that. They work together, even when one is not right there. It's fascinating to me that they seem to have fairly different personalities and ways of interacting with the world and yet at some base level, like you said, there's clearly something that brings them together, a genuine niceness and a certain maturity about how they're handling life... and that way that they make each other so earnestly happy. And I think that's all crucial to why they've been able to grow together, not necessarily in the same ways and doing the same things, but together anyway, in a manner that enhanced each of them individually and their couple at the same time. I don't know. In a way, they're like this beautiful puzzle to me. I have no clue how they've made it work under so much pressure
Also: I love what you said about how the nude scandal must have affected them, you put it so perfectly. I'm sure as a result they're both far more guarded than they should have to be. I have honestly no words for how much I hate the way people have reacted to this and to this day feel entitled to their reaction; it's maddening to me in so many ways. The whole concept of sluttiness is ridiculous and I despise the way it restrains girls and women - it bothers me enough all the ways in which so many women feel like they can't desire certain things or in certain ways. So I can't imagine what it's like when on top of the pressure that society puts onto all of us, you find yourself at the center of a group execution in honor of the slut discourse, with you as principal culprit. It makes me so angry she would have to go through that and had to fucking apologize to the world on top of it all, while no one apologized to her. I hope that it hasn't touched her and her desires too much, or at least that she's worked through that, and that in private she still does whatever feels good and whatever she enjoys, because I hate to think that it might have affected that profoundly. (And I realize there's a good chance it has, but yeah.)